Varlash Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) I would like to voice my conserns of our new core raider system. As of last night we have 16 core raiders and 6 Officers. Thats 22 People who expect to be part of first time boss kills. Leaving 3 spots for normal raider rank and trials. We are basicly back at everybody is entitled to a raid spot based soley off guild rank. Seeing as Officers clearly cant be not guarenteed a raid spot the solution is a max number of core raiders at any 1 time. My suggestion is 10. Thats 16 guarenteed raid spots leaving 9 spots for everybody else plus any non attending officers or core raiders for the night. Core raiders should be guarenteed a raid spot on all progression fights as well as bosses with best in slot loot with the remaining raiders using the boss wish list. That being said here is what i feel should be the critiria for getting and keeping core raider. -75% raid attendance, no excuses. That is 6/8 raid a month. Even if you post saying you cant be there if you drop below 6 attended raids in a 30 day period or lose core raider. - On time to raid -Exceptionally good play, Has a negligable amount of death to avoidable mechanics. 2 maybe 3 a week. -Not toxic to raid environment. This encludes,loot drama, drama, bad attitude, constant talking about non boss mechanics during a boss. -Activly participate in boss mechinics, IE. Rifts, interrupts , puddles, volenteering for towers or siege engeneers. - Have a Microphone and be willing to use it, this allows you to help your fellow raiders out of raid time as well as properly communicate during bosses. - Be willing to build, learn and play off spec if recuired by raid. We should also have a list of mandetory loss of core raider, No if ands or buts, you do these you go back to raider. - Habitually not following 1 or multipal critiria for being a core raider The final point i have for core raider is it should be voted on. Officers choose a list of people they feel deserve core raider (currently 16 people) and make a poll for the raid to vote on so that there is minimal favritism as well as letting everybody feel like they have a say in whats going on in raid. Edited March 28, 2014 by Varlash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varibash Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I am about to get rid of the system all together. It's a nice concept on paper but has and will continue to create animosity among our raiders. It's a terribly flawed system in it's current form, and your suggestion sounds like it would make things worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansky Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) There is one major problem I see with core raider atm. This guild is and has been since I've joined it, a casual guild. Yes, we do good progression, but we also bring people in who have been in the guild for a long time and have been raiders for a long time who do end up dying almost every fight to mechanics and we don't really care because it's atmosphere first. It's what makes this guild such a great environment. Remember when we were telling people who apped before the merger that we probably won't get past 2-4 heroic bosses before going on break and letting our 10man take over? Now since the server merger and we've gotten many raiders and we've tasted our share of heroics (holy shit 8/14???) we're slowly losing that casual atmosphere and great environment. Is that nessessarily a bad thing? Depends on who you ask. What do we want from the guild in the next 6 months before the xpack? That's something we should be asking. TLDR: The core raider system forgoes our long-time standing raiders and that's a big issue in a casual guild. And then, when someone does get core raider who for example dies to mechanics all the time but is always there and ready, people get angry that that person didn't deserve it. There is no winning when there are "requirements". Do I know how to fix it? No. But the current system only hurts the feelings of people who make this guild what it is. So that's my 2c. Edited March 28, 2014 by Ansky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varibash Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 My feelings too Ansky, I just couldn't put a finger on what I felt until just now. It IS destroying our casual atmosphere. Thanks for helping figure out what I was feeling lol. for the time being, I have moved everyone back down to raider until we figure out a solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansky Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I think if you really want to have a Raider vs Core Raider, Core Raider should be people who have proven to be part of the team through the amount of time they have been in the guild and the amount of raiding they have done with us while Raider should be mostly new people and casuals. I understand it was meant as incentive to step up your game with all the requirements but that just won't work imo. You can't compare not dying to mechanics to showing up for raid to dropping 10k worth of herbs in the guild bank. We all work together to make shit happen. The core is the core and we all know who we see in the raid every week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varlash Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) Edited March 28, 2014 by Varlash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansky Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Also the only thing that makes us a "casual" guild is that fact people keep saying it. We are a 25ma Hardmode raiding guild [...] We are? We barely got 2 heroics in MSV and TOT. The only reason we're where we are now is because we have the time and the people willing to raid. This is the perspective of raiders that needs to be addressed. I don't mind being a "hardmode raiding guild" for what it is, but you said it yourself, we are not on the same page. And yes you can compair putting herbs in the guild bank to not hindering the group, one makes you a good raider, the other a good guild member. There are plenty of people who are casual players who don't usually log in besides raiding. I'm one of them. They rely on the guild bank to provide flasks. Not having flasks does hinder the group's performance. A member who doesn't raid doesn't have any reason to drop herbs in the GB. A raider who specifically does it to help out the group does. It's like Ninja said last night, she had a spot in the raid before because she went out of her way to get the mats and fish feasts when others wouldn't. That takes time and dedication, and it does make you a core raider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varlash Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) It shouldnt make you a core raider. not if you do basic raider requierments. Sure you could use it as a tie breaker. But as an actual reason for getting core raider. definitly not. Also what happened in MSV AND ToT is completly irrelivent. Edited March 28, 2014 by Varlash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allison Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) Edited March 28, 2014 by Nerita Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varibash Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I have no intention of making donations to the guild bank a requirement. I realize that about half our raid team don't log into WoW outside of raid times and it isn't fair to those people who don't have time to farm. Also, keep this thread going, I like the discourse here. More focus on how to improve it though.!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varlash Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) Vasicly the way to improve it is make it special. dont hand it out every wednesday. keep it to a smaller number of people. Treat it like you would picking an officer. People you trust to show up.be good and not be toxic. The core raider rank is important to have. it givea recrutes a person to look to for help with thier class. Other raiders to measure dps, talent choices. gemming and enchants. Core raider should be a list of people that when shit hits the fan you can count on. Edited March 28, 2014 by Varlash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allison Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I'm scared that some won't like it at all and feel like they're being pushed out because people who are newer get a 'better' rank, or whatever. That all they've done means nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varibash Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I'm scared that some won't like it at all and feel like they're being pushed out because people who are newer get a 'better' rank, or whatever. That all they've done means nothing. That's the problem we are currently having. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varlash Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share Posted March 28, 2014 Honestly if people feel that way they are over thinking it waaaaay to much and are just looking for a reason to be upset Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varibash Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Honestly if people feel that way they are over thinking it waaaaay to much and are just looking for a reason to be upset Not everyone has your personality. It IS a big deal to some people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varlash Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share Posted March 28, 2014 If they are looking at it like they are being punished istead of somthing to work for then there is a problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allison Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansky Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) From what Varlash has been saying, I keep getting that Core Raider = exceptional player. One who knows the class, tops the meters, and is always on time and prepared. That is the mindset of a hardcore guild. The -core- of this guild are the raiders who show up every week and stay through the wipes and improve every wipe until we kill the boss. That is OUR core. We all know who they are, we see them every raid night. That's why the Core Raider rank to good players versus good raiders will not work for this guild. People will feel hurt because they put in the time but because they're not great they don't get the recognition. I can't think of one person who fits ALL the criteria you listed. And, If we recruit great players that fit the criteria they will leave once they realize just how casual the rest of us are, and that's what has happened already with those who joined in the past few months. Edited March 28, 2014 by Ansky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varlash Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) If we are just a casual guild and not a raiding guild then remove the rank and be done with it. So thats the question i have for the officers. What are we. Edited March 28, 2014 by Varlash Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varibash Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 we are a raiding guild and a casual guild, those are the titles we have used and it has gotten us to this point, and all these changes pushing us toward the title of Hardcore Guild is destroying the environment we worked so hard to create and maintain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varlash Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share Posted March 28, 2014 Both really doesnt work, it may have worked for normals and for the first few bosses of heroic, but we are now over halfway into hardmodes. We have half the raid wanting to do progression as a raidign guild and the other half that is content to get their gear and sit until we get to a boss that drops more gear for them. whats destroying the raid enviroment is we are way past what anybody expected us to originally expected us to get to and the casual guild model no longer works for the raiding we are doing. And the officers have already made it clear that we are a raiding guild aiming to progress by cutting the first 3 bosses of the instance so that we have a full night for progression fights and are confusing people by still claiming we are ment to be casual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mastric Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Very well pointed post Varlash and it would have worked 2 weeks earlyer, but Bash has already started reform We are currently looking to changing the ranks, we're just not sure with what. Our Jedi rank system seemed to work back in the day but we can't remember how it worked. For the time being we're most likely going to test this until the expansion in hopes of having it ironed out for the next new raid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansky Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I do want to add that I like the idea of having a rank for exceptional players who know their class and top the meters as well as good attendance and willingness to help others. Those who recruits and raiders can come to for help. No more than one person of each class/spec but also not people of a class just because they're only ones in the guild. They would have to be exceptional and want the position. With the extra responsibilities of being available for help, they will get the extra benefits that core raider rank got and the bragging rights which gives those who care incentive to get better. Maybe call it something like Master Raider with class/spec in the comment. Just an idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varlash Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share Posted March 28, 2014 If i had know we were going to end up back at 16 core raiders i would have, i actually pointed this out after the first wave of promotions when held or ftfk, cant remember which announced there would be more coming in the following weeks and that they had a large list of canditates. I do want to add that I like the idea of having a rank for exceptional players who know their class and top the meters as well as good attendance and willingness to help others. Those who recruits and raiders can come to for help. No more than one person of each class/spec but also not people of a class just because they're only ones in the guild. They would have to be exceptional and want the position. With the extra responsibilities of being available for help, they will get the extra benefits that core raider rank got and the bragging rights which gives those who care incentive to get better. Maybe call it something like Master Raider with class/spec in the comment. Just an idea. Master raider is more likly to upset people that didnt get it then the core raider rank would >.< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varibash Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 A "Class Leader" Rank seems to be an idea. Someone who knows their class inside and out that is willing and able to help out the other members of their class. Regardless of spec. Let's get the topic back on course of how to improve the rank and it's implementation and not just reasons why it isn't working. I agree that, yes, we have progressed much farther then anyone in the guild originally thought we would, and that's due to the leadership direction Heldarram has taken the raid. It has been beneficial. That doesn't mean we have to lose sight of what has kept this guild a driving force on the server. I have seen hundreds of guilds come and go and one of the only thing that remains constant is our guild. The system as stands is a bit silly, having more then 85% of the raid team "immune" from sitting allowing no time to test trials is.... flawed. I think we need to enforce the "Boss Wish List" and make sure we swap people in and out accordingly. A Google Doc seems like it would be something worth having to better track who wants what boss, so swapping people will be seemless. And there are those players in the raid who we simply cannot sit because we NEED their dps to beat enrage timers that we currently barely beat (sha, nourshen, nazgrim, etc etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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