Varlash Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share Posted March 28, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allison Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I'm hoping everything can be worked out I really do love it here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pìkachu Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 This thread has grown into quite something here is my input on it. First of all you cannot really label our guild any of the two tags you are throwing around. We are not a hardcore guild because we only raid two nights a week and have much more lenient standards then hardcore guilds. We are also not a casual guild because our guild has some damn good players and just because we have a wide verity of people of different skill levels does not classify us as such. Our guild is a guild where our main selling point is the great atmosphere of its members. Yes we have alot of people from long ago still here and alot of casual players but with most of our raid team dedicated and pushing very far into this tier ( casual guilds dont get 8/14 heroic) we get shit done. When it comes down to an issue with someones play there are many factors that have to be accounted for. In this guild if you die alot or do shit dps you dont get benched and removed from the raid team because thats not how we work. The whole core raider thing is a pretty big mess right now. I know i overacted to not getting it the first week but that is because i felt like being a great member of the raid team and being in the guild for such a long time i was entitled to be labeled as a core member of the raid group. I can see how others could get offended like i did after all the work they put in to not receive recognition especially when now so many of our peers have it. I dont really know what the solution is to this problem but i do feel like there are too many core raiders now and its getting back to the meaningless point BUT i feel like we need some more structured rankings. Its just difficult to find a way to reword some people without out casting the others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iammoot Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 And the officers have already made it clear that we are a raiding guild aiming to progress by cutting the first 3 bosses of the instance so that we have a full night for progression fights and are confusing people by still claiming we are ment to be casual. I don't agree with this statement. The whole reason people get bored with content and burn out is because they have seen it a thousand times. That's why dragon soul was such a problem at the end of cataclysm; it was short and didn't take too long to complete but it was out for a year and even heavily nerfed. Everyone had done it and noone cared about it anymore because it was the same old routine for over a year. Just because we're trying to push progression doesn't mean that we are a hardcore guild. Progression is natural--it happens as people naturally accrue gear and learn new mechanics and how to play their class better. It's inevitable. Furthermore, skipping bosses that we have had on farm for 2-3 months now is another natural part of progression especially in long tiers like SOO. Those bosses are wasted time with at least 4 or 5 pieces being DE'd or going to Off Spec each week. We can save time and speed up the process but I don't think that makes us a hardcore guild. Not to mention the fact that repeating these kills each week brings back memories of Dragon Soul for me--and it will for you too if we keep doing it for months on end. The takeaway here is that the labels we have for ourselves are still true and we need to abide by them or we risk some significant problems going forward in addition to what we're already dealing with. There have been some excellent points gone over in this thread that I won't reiterate in favor of time but it's obvious at this point that there is a significant amount of work that needs to be put in to this idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorty Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) hi, I'm Vorty, that new boomkin you might have maybe seen in the wild. I may be new here, but in just 3 weeks i sure have seen my fair share of your inner workings. I also come from an extensive background of "top server" mentality down to "super casual". First off i would like to say... any "rank" that 100% guarantees a raid spot is always going to cause issues, especially if people feel that slot is wasted on a sub par player. People who have a for sure slot become lazy and stop trying, I've seen it happen many times over my long many of years raiding. This includes Officers, class/ role leaders, and "Core Raiders". If you want to actually push from a super casual to a more aggressive approach on raiding, you need to ditch the for sure positions. Tanks are the only exception to the rule, and 99% healers. DPS are a dime a dozen, and the people that are situationally aware and perform close to their maximum potential should have a spot over someone who is comfortable with their guaranteed spot dying to simple mechanics and doing subpar performance. Long time veteran shouldn't matter if the person just plain doesn't care about beating the encounter and moving on. You have multiple people handling DKP, not every single GM/assistant GM/officer + their two best friends needs to always sit in for every single encounter, its rediculous to even suggest that you are above and beyond everyone to be around for as spot that could benefit others greatly. Officers should also know the classes they play and abilities, I was a crappy trial sat and have been spewing suggestions and ideas for various encounter trouble spots from the side lines, I shouldnt be doing this. Raid spots should be earned, and rotated. Side grades and no upgrade bosses should be sat out for people in need. Don't be selfish. you gain nothing, and they lose everything. Trials should only be tested on farm bosses (assuming room can be made). The flip side to trials being sat all the time is they are set up for failure later on unless people share resources. Gear shouldn't be sharded, it should be distributed. Anyway, I have more thoughts on everything, but I had very little time. edit: I Would like to state I'm not trying to rip apart management, just pointing out the negatives that come with for sure positions. especially if you want to progress further with fewer fuck ups. you have people WILLING AND ABLE to push progression, but might pass over them due to people in a rank that grants them a spot. Edited March 28, 2014 by Vorty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pìkachu Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 vorty pls my eyes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ftfk Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I think what bugged me the most and why I figured I'd help varlash write it all out was because when I asked ftfk what really mattered amd why certain people got it over others, he said, "basically if you dont die to avoidable mechanics a lot, you're in" I was saying that was a good place to start. I also followed up by saying dying to avoidable or mitigateable mechanics is a quick way to stand out for the wrong reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heldarram Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 You have multiple people handling DKP, not every single GM/assistant GM/officer + their two best friends needs to always sit in for every single encounter, its rediculous to even suggest that you are above and beyond everyone to be around for as spot that could benefit others greatly. We have 1 person who will actively run dkp in a night due to only being able to have one session open at a time but we have 3 people who are capable of running it 2 of which myself and bash help raid lead ( yes raid leading takes a huge toll on your performance and patience and does get to be way to much for one person to handle. It does get really stressful at times and having to deal with anything that could arise. I very much disagree with this statement above i sat myself for the first 3 bosses last week and yes each one has significant upgrades for me boots helms necks... to give you trials your spots so you could get in get some heroic gear etc and guess what were not doing those bosses anymore. I try to rotate people in and out as I NEED as a raid leader I've been more then lenient enough getting you 3 trials in over the past raid weeks even on progression raid comp bosses rotating you guys in and out.Officers should also know the classes they play and abilities, I was a crappy trial sat and have been spewing suggestions and ideas for various encounter trouble spots from the side lines, I shouldnt be doing this. I totally disagree with this statement regarding that even if your sitting on the bench your not expected to contribute you are very much expected to be listening giving active advice and not complaining about above i require input from all 30 raiders to make the guild run the way it does everyone`s insight is so important to me It never has been a one person show if were working on progression or even farm bosses and we could be doing something better even if your actively not in raid i expect to hear about it. Im only one person and I can`t come up with everything neither can the other officers and yes some of my great ideas have come from regular raiders telling me to change something because they can see things i can`t. Raid spots should be earned, and rotated. Side grades and no upgrade bosses should be sat out for people in need. Don't be selfish. you gain nothing, and they lose everything. Trials should only be tested on farm bosses (assuming room can be made). The flip side to trials being sat all the time is they are set up for failure later on unless people share resources. Gear shouldn't be sharded, it should be distributed. Anyway, I have more thoughts on everything, but I had very little time. Raid spots are fair people offer to sit and i bring people in but at the end of the day the things i have to look at is how is group comp who benifets more are we going to kill the boss who is holding back the raid on the current fight etc. If i was to test trials on only farm bosses you guys would be seeing alot less content ie the first 3 bosses and maybe jugg and galkras because the rest require great execution to be done. I try to bring you in on those fights also to see what your capable of but as the raid goes on things change and i can`t always keep to things as planned and our raiders know this for a fact and its not something you can take personal. I know your still not happy with the choice i made for sitting you for dark shamans but at the time it was what was best for the raid group and as you can see that boss is still hard for us and I`m going to do what i thinks best in the long run to make it easier on 24 other people in no way am i saying i don`t need you in raid i just needed people who were more familiar with said fight and reduced our chances of wiping. Yes i would make that choice again if i need to and its one of the hard parts of being raid leader I can`t make everyone happy but i will try and make the group the most efficient as it can be I really do require alot of help when raid leading and i couldn`t do it alone... At the end of the day i view it as what`s best for everyone else`s time. I tried to explain everything the best i could but i never have been the best for talking.... and I`m always down to explain how we think and why theres a reason for everything we do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorty Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) apparently i'm mad? trials over, should much change? no (and I don't assume it to change). and you're right. you should though decide who you are taking as to not save people who do infact need bosses, heroic or not. I have had 6 raid night, 4 of which I was brought for trash, dropped a noodle cart, buffed up, then get put on bench with a flask rolling. its kind of depressing when it has been 60% of my carrier, oh well, ill live. as for raid leading, thats what makes good raid leading over bad. the ability to do your task while also monitoring those around you and assigning on the fly tasks. if you have to hold up your position and weight there are logs and addons that track raid damage and where it goes and comes from to assist you in seeing not who just tops meters, but who participates in the full mechanics (assuming that class can perform said task). I felt your replay was a tad defensive, as if you were assuming I was attacking you all for not doing something. You want opinions and I have plenty. are they always right, hell no. do they always work for every group of people across wow as a whole? fuck no. but you still didnt reply to the main purpose of this thread, feedback surrounding the "core raider" Showing up is easy, pleasing a bunch of people is also "easy". should NOT grant you a slot though. I don't know what exactly the guild bank "supplies" yet, but for feasts. instead of farming, buy low. I get roughly 50 noodle carts a week for under 200g total, flasks for maybe 15g each. you just need to know how the server economy works. would or should supplying the bank with raiding materials grant a higher chance @ a spot? not sure. farming is easy, playing the AH is easy. geting 25 people on the same page is not. and kissing ass to everyone makes them all happy Edited March 28, 2014 by Vorty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heldarram Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I didn`t say that but players tend to feel hurt when sat it`s happen and that post gave that kind of vibe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mastric Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I didn't actually see Vorty's post as anything negative vibey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heldarram Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I didnt see it as a true vibe though :/ like i said i take things wrong though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorty Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) I ended up editing that last post instead of just replying, my bad. Don't take things as an aggressive "points fingers" I was told to give an opinion. Edited March 28, 2014 by Vorty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allison Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I think what bugged me the most and why I figured I'd help varlash write it all out was because when I asked ftfk what really mattered amd why certain people got it over others, he said, "basically if you dont die to avoidable mechanics a lot, you're in" I was saying that was a good place to start. I also followed up by saying dying to avoidable or mitigateable mechanics is a quick way to stand out for the wrong reasons. I'm sure being at work didn't help my brain think very well xD, it's just what stuck out to me, not attacking you, but, idk, I feel like I did say last night that I'd like to sit with all of you to make sure I was getting everything; BUT I am pretty dumb v_v; Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorty Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 I like toast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varibash Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 keep on track guys, we need ways to improve our current systems, not just the reasons it currently sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorty Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) what positives come from that ranking? also off topic: phobia, you ever hit up ground kontrol in downtown portland? fun times shall be had @ the barcade Edited March 28, 2014 by Vorty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allison Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Probably the same things as it is right now, but it might have to be changed if it's going to be limited to 10 people, so you won't get dkp each time you switch in and out of the 10 'core'. Idk, another boss to the wish list. It doesn't have to be 100% chance to get into raid, it can be priority when going after bosses. It's all flexible, for open discussion, and depending on what the officers n' such wanna do with those suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkul Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 (edited) Going to be completely honest, I don't know why I was one of the first to get "core raider." I haven't been in the guild that long and don't usually tend to provide any insightful ideas for encounters. Nonetheless, it was nice to feel appreciated but I quickly realized it didn't exactly mean that much. Many of the promises or rewards that were spoken of for core raiders weren't implemented, I just had an extra 100 gold of guild repairs I didn't need. Core raider now didn't feel much different compared to when I first got it before the new year. I'm not entirely sure how to solve the problem either. Coming from a 10 man guild everyone was basically a "core raider." With a 25 man guild there is guaranteed to be more conflicts, and adding a rank above the others would only amplify that in my opinion. I think the boss wishlist is definitely a step in the right direction. In the end I think it all depends on what kind of guild we want to be. Based on what a lot of people say, and what I feel too, I definitely think the sense of community created should be maintained. Despite our progression I don't think we should be labelled as hardcore. While my first impressions of this guild were that it was pretty hardcore (due to being interviewed by an officer, who shall remain unnamed, before I was accepted; rip) we only raid two nights a week and while we do progress, it's not a fuss if we don't down certain bosses. Just because we are chopping three from the beginning doesn't change this. It's almost like skipping the first wing on lfr and doing the rest. I guess what it comes down to is that I don't think we should have some sort of hierarchy among the raiders. We already have gms, assistant gms and officers to take care of us plebs. We're all raiders anyway, why differentiate us? Like everything else in life, there are going to be people who are better than you at a particular task. but that doesn't make them a better person or more deserving in any way. have this happy sounding song to cheer you all up (the band name is great ok pika) Edited March 28, 2014 by Varkul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vorty Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 well said vark. the "perk" really was +100 free gold? thats cool i guess, if this was burning crusade >< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varkul Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Thanks a lot There was other stuff like an extra boss on the wishlist and preference for being sat/brought into raids but I don't think any of it was enforced. Like I said I think we should just leave it at raider rank because it makes the most sense in terms of what kind of guild we are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varlash Posted March 29, 2014 Author Share Posted March 29, 2014 I dont think anybody should be allowed to ask to sit. It should be an officer decision on you is the best swap not oh i dont need loot here ill sit until we get to a boss i want. Or if you choose to sit you get brought back in at officer discression or you wish list boss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mastric Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 Officer - "Anyone need in for this boss?" Raider 1 "I'll sit" Raider 2 "I can sit" Raider 3 "I don't need anything" Raider 4 "I don't need loot off this boss" Raider 5 "I'll sit for Raider 1" That! Is getting annoying... An idea of Core Raider was to have a Core set that didn't need to sit, pee, eat, or move a couch, and could be relied upon in all but the most dire requests. The idea of a limited group does sound good, allowing Raiders, Core Raiders, Officers+ (Active Raiders) to vote and choose the "Top ##" could work. Remove the weekly rotation + promo, only the core group can retire someone from there rank, then the Active Raiders would vote on the replacement. Reset the entire Core Group every Tier and let the Active Raiders choose the core. I'm good with keeping the gold benefit currently as it's small, but nothing other then the rank+ should be given. The idea would be that "Core Raiders" choosen by the Active Raiders would be the best in all logical means. A sort of buffer to the officers for non officer tasks. 9 May be a good number, vote breaking, these nine kings, sorcerers, and warriors of old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansky Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 An idea of Core Raider was to have a Core set that didn't need to sit, pee, eat, or move a couch, and could be relied upon in all but the most dire requests. The idea of a limited group does sound good, allowing Raiders, Core Raiders, Officers+ (Active Raiders) to vote and choose the "Top ##" could work. Remove the weekly rotation + promo, only the core group can retire someone from there rank, then the Active Raiders would vote on the replacement. Reset the entire Core Group every Tier and let the Active Raiders choose the core. I'm good with keeping the gold benefit currently as it's small, but nothing other then the rank+ should be given. The idea would be that "Core Raiders" choosen by the Active Raiders would be the best in all logical means. A sort of buffer to the officers for non officer tasks. So have 9 Core Raiders chosen by Raiders to receive rank, some extra repair gold, and the power to remove each other from the rank. I guess I don't understand the point. It sounds unnesessary. I can only see this causing drama between Raiders and Core Raiders, and if Core Raiders choose to kick someone for one reason or another, that someone will undoubtedly gquit. We don't even kick people from the raid because that's not how we do things. This will be the epitome of shit sturring imo. No guild needs to initiate drama, and this can only end up with hurt feelings and gquits. Not to mention, we're all human so we're all automatically disqualified haha. If it aint broke, don't fix it. Our guild was doing just fine 3 weeks ago. =\ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Varibash Posted March 29, 2014 Share Posted March 29, 2014 If it aint broke, don't fix it. Our guild was doing just fine 3 weeks ago. =\ I am of this opinion. I think the "core" rank needs to stay gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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