Sazda

hunters: glyphed raptor strike + deterrence for HoT soaking is a possibility

after tonights raid we shall be FIRELORDs!

thats what we have been doing so far - we still fail fairly reliably (except we put all our "backups" into the groups right away)

not any different to wha twe do now it doesnt work cause people die and we take too much damage (AND apparently we have holes to somewhere)

no, the yellow bar is only there for users with your access level.. not for normal members and sefi: this is not off topic... those things have to be made very clear to ensure we are all on the same page and ready for rocking hagara's socks off.... (or use another expression if you prefer) talking about no topic... here is something useful: I talked to a guy from Onslaught last night about Hagara and he was surprised that we use every single person plus our pets during lightning phase when making the X for chaining. He thinks that this would put way too much damage on the raid which might only be very tough to heal. Every time the lightning jumps from one char/pet to another, it creates damage. They way they do it is following: No healers are ever chaining. Every pet class does not use their pet for chaining (make sure to move it far enough away). He thought that they only use 4 characters per side to chain from middle to the outside. Noone is standing in the exact middle - just 4 people (1 each side) close to it. Healers stand outsider the chain and just heal from there. Thoughts?

wow editting posts to make others look stupid.. way to go sir

and again: you mean sunday ;-)

rogue has: 2x vanishes (2min cd - a duel will never last long enough for this to refresh) blind (2min - do not trinket that) cheapsot disarm evasion (3min) combat readiness (1.5min - shared cd with cloak of shadows) 2x smokebomb (3 min) kindey shot (20s) gouge (10s) shadowstep (24s) shadowdance (1min) you know kidney shot usually follows up on cheapshot - but other then that you cant really anticipate those short cd stuff all that exact. just know it can happen. since you try to keep your distance all fight, it hopefully wont be applied too much. cheap shot can only be used when he is stealthed or shadow dancing - and he will pretty much always open with that combo. disarm etc you cant really do alot about (except of course weapon chain). when disarmed - put down flare, snake trap, etc. you need to get a feeling when shadowstep is up again and when he is likely to use it... you can then learn to deterrence it and negate that effect. you can also simply spin around as soon as he steps since he will step behind you - turn around and scatter... it can happen that both happens at the same time. the only time a rogue can be dangerous to you is in stuns (shadowdance). so its basically about avoiding those. you basically need something for every shadow dance. roar of sacrifice is huge.. you also have trinket for that. if you are low on health - you must not trinket anything but stuns. when he does combat readiness, basically stop attacking him (includign pet) until it falls off - cause it will keep refreshing and other nasty stuff. look at how a duel would go: you start in camo, drop a flare. some people like to sit on a trap - others dont. if you stand still, you are stealthed and usually see him before he sees you. so sit in a spot, spam tab to target him asap and scatter before he cheapshots. frost trap you should drop there - no real need for freeze trap opener. now kite him around the nearby flare as much as possible. he will shadow step asap - so you can pre-roar.. and not use trinket. once it ends - disengage towards flare/frost trap zone... he will likely smokebomb, since he cant vanish very well nor shadowstep. keep distance.. you still have mc, trinket and other funny stuff at this point. on smokebomb: send pet in for attack, use flare or launch a snake trap.. unless a dot is already on him. he pretty much has to vanish... with a dot on him it wont break for a few seconds, so have distance. keep the flare inbetween you if possible. if he vanishes - deterrence. you can likely detect him soon after and take him out of stealth before he can open on you. he might try to blind after that - you probably dont want to trinket that. shadowstep will be up again - here you got MC and get distance. its a lot of ifs now.. but what does he have left? prep is the next obvious thing... if he does that, drop trap, use readiness and be ready to deterrence his step on you to kite him again... once his cd's are blown its rather easy to finish him off. dont refresh his combat readiness - half damage is big... wait until the buff is gone. oh btw- shadow step has a rather short distance - if you are able to max range kite him, he cant use it for a while. another thing - if you anticipate a shadow step - make sure to put a trap down and walk through it (or turn around of applicable) so he lands right on it upon stepping. another thing: rather do not use serpent sting until later - so you dont lose the chance to monkey stun him and trap him full duration. hm whatelse... of course thats only one way.. you can also simply open with a ice trap and aimed crit open on him in the beginning. deterrence = flare, trap. in the end its simply lots of execution, practice, knowing what will happen.

Glyph of Camouflage - Your Camouflage ability now provides stealth even while moving, but your movement speed while Camouflage is active is reduced by 50%. INSANE for PvP combine that with: Glyph of Aimed Shot - If used while your Camouflage is active, your Aimed Shot ability also reduces the target's movement speed by 50% for 6 sec. YEAH INSTA KILLS MADE EASIER! and this: Glyph of Steady Shot - Your Steady Shot now reduces the target's movement speed by 50% for 6 sec if used on a target within 8 yards. man.. people will hate hunters in arena again!

kill last night: numbers are pretty much the same as above... differences occur here: Shadow Priest up to 49k from 45k (from former 38k) - nice job! Arms Warrior down to 42k from 50k Combat Rogue down to 41k from 45k Shamans down to 40k from 44k Mage up to 38k from 32k (not counting the trial) All in all there are a few things to note here: #1: Meelee DPS went considerably down, simply because they had to move to the globule much earlier than during our first kill. The problem is, that our ranged did not do enough damage on it. Ideally, we want to stick (at least) the rogues full time on the boss without ever having to switch. With the ranged setup from last night that is not possible. We are, however, very close to reach it. It was simply an issue of having a few weak ranged plus late switching on some occasions. #2 Mage getting slowly better: Looking at the log from last night, during lust aoe phase Mordechai peaked at 150k dps... that is more than we had before. It is not great yet and it also only happened once during the fight, but it is a step forward. The other peaks during the kill fight were at 50kish. If we compare that to try #4, Mordechai had a peak of 117k in the first AOE phase without lust or anything going on. That means it is very possible to be done, just stuff has to be timed better i suppose (if our mages reaches those peaks for every aoe phase, they will easily end up at 70k dps while doing everything else in a similar way). #3 everything chains together: More DPS on globule, means more dps on boss & mana void - more dps during aoe means more dps on boss & mana void - more dps on mana void means more dps from casters... etc etc etc. It stacks. Improving only one of these things will improve everything else as well.

i always thought stacking in the exact middle is impossible cause the boss is there and his bubble thingy kills on contact... but i guess the thing that kills are the ice waves spawning there... stacking in the middle sounds fine to me in that case (if we are able to survive walking to that spot)... lets also try the lightning phase positions again before doing trash... there is absolutely no need to wipe on that again^^ the rest really should be cheesecake

Ideally, we actually want ranged/healers to be in the VERY middle. This allows them to heal/dps/dispel from the same place. Splitting in two just allows us to stick healers and dispellers in the middle and help out the melee groups with heals/dispels. Upon thinking more, I think that the best choice might just be to have EVERYONE get close and as soon as bubble is popped, one healer pops a tranq/hymn while another pops a raid-wall (AM or Tank Raidwall) and we all run to the middle. All the while, healers can pop SWG, CD's etc to get us there. ONce we get in the middle, the people in the middle will be able to dps all the pillars and heal all the people without moving. Your guys' thoughts? Alright, let's try it. I personally would probably try following: - pull 2/3 hunters (depending on the nights meelee strength) into the meelee group to kill the first target right away... i would try to avoid having to get there for a 2nd time - i talk hunter, because master's call is very powerful in terms of never being slowed by the debuff - everyone else does just like now: split dps on meelees 2nd & 3rd target (make sure to split it somewhat evenly). Kill 2nd target first, then 3rd target. Then everyone kills meelees last target together That is a 3/4 round for meelee if things work out and we get to end the phase much earlier. It also involves the ranged to only move once for a short distance - which is the minimum you would have to do with any strategy that doesnt involve 2 ranged camps (which i am very skeptical about due to making it tougher on healing). But yeah, those are just my thoughts.. i am happy to be convinced of the strat above working out great for us.

i am not quite understanding what the advantage is to have two groups in the middle rather than one (aoe heals?). i mean: what advantage does it offer us to do that as opposed to doing it the same way we used to - except sticking a few ranged to the outside?

very sorry to hear that

but it doesnt... we still have to move slightly to get all 3 pillars it might be possible to hit all 3 targets from the very spot where X is... but that would require us to move back to the spot once we got knocked back

snugg: i dont think he was complaining that we had people in the raid that are on low dps instead of benching them.. he was merely answering to my point that we are not going for #1 dps spots and it wont matter for our progression whether someone does 1, 2, 3, 6k less dps. We will just have to agree to disagree here. We are both looking at the whole thing from completely different angles. I simply do not agree with your reasoning. Just because some people write on their blogs or in forum posts that locks suck does not make the point an automatic truth. Every class would like to be better and stronger and the grass is - as they say - always greener on the other side. Hence, people like talking about how bad their own class is. I do not really pay a lot of attention to those kind of things. Maybe that is because i am a computer scientist. I need data - data that can hardly lie (careful with that statement ). back to hagara: Just cause locks do not have the greatest burst damage and therefore cannot take advantage of the short increased damage dealt to hagara (isnt it only like 15% anyways for a short time?) does not make locks useless in the fight. The only argument I have is to point you to the logs i mentioned above, which clearly state that locks are not useless in this fight... but now we are simply turning in circles. I understand all your points i guess.. i simply draw different conclusiions from most of them.

here is the data for our kill for comparison. New data all in orange: SV Hunters average 57 (52) k dps - #200 in the world is 66(65) k - thats 86 (80) % - 54k = 82% Ret Pally averaged 52 k - #200 in the world is 58k - thats 90 % (rebel: 90 to 93%) - 50k = 86% Combat Rogues average 45 (45) k dps - #200 in the world is 57k - thats 79% - 42k = 74% (only ninja) Arms Warrior did 50k dps - #200 in the world is 63k - thats 79% (same as last week) - not there Warlocks: Affli - 47 (45) k - #200 is at: 54k - thats 87 (83) % - no affli this time Demo - 36k - #200 is at: 59k - thats 61% (i believe he was dead inbetween - not sure) - 46.5k = 79% (10k difference both locks) Destru - 39 (26) k - #200 is at: 47k - thats 83 (55) % - no destru this time Elemental Shamans average 44 (43) k - #200 in the world is 56k - thats 79 (77) % - 45k = 80% Enhancement Shaman did 34k - #200 in the world is 60k - thats 63% (new this time) - no enh this time Shadow Priest did 45 (38) k - #200 in the world is 64k - thats 70 (59) % - 43k = 67% Fire Mages average 32 (29)k - #200 in the world is 80k - thats 40 (36) % - 36k = 45% Balance Druid did 31k - #200 in the world is 59k - thats 53% (new this week, also unenchanted items) 31k = 53% Unholy DK did 41k - #200 in the world is 56k - thats 73%

That is simply because you obviously are doing exactly that - looking at things the way you want to be able to whine about it. Then again, this is simply MY opinion based on reading your arguments and combining them with my own observations - both simply do not match up. Want an example? Here you go: So this is a valid observation you say? Based on what? I say it is whining and whining only, and i can show you what i am basing that on so you can understand the way i look at it: Go to raidbots.com - select "ALL PARSES", and "MEDIAN" for 25h Hagara. Look at the rankings. The best warlock spec is at 30.7k DPS. The average DPS number of all classes is somewhere at 31.4k DPS. In other words, you are at 98% of the perfect number (see my point earlier)... that is absolutely phenomenal and i do simply not understand how a comment like "Sit your warlocks. Moving on." could possibly be a valid observation here. Now do the same thing for 10h on Hagara. Yes.. out of the bottom 4 specs, 3 are all 3 warlock specs. That looks bad. But.. does it really? Lets look at the numbers: The top warlock spec here does (still on median over all parses) over 24.9k DPS. The middle of all classes/specs is somewhere at 26k. That means you are at 96% of where you want to be. Again, thats phenomenal balance. You starting to get the idea of why i keep reverting to you only looking at things the way you want to be able to whine about lock dps? Moving on to your next point: You clearly did not read my last post. I am not even talking about top 100 parses anymore. I am talking about all recorded parses and their median values. Is that wrong now too? What exactly would you look at in terms of actual data instead? Hell no... unless we were a top progression guild that is going for world first kills which we clearly are not.... surprise. But what exactly is the problem here? Is it horrible to do a few k dps less than what you could do with another spec that you, understandably, do not want to respec into after each fight? Is it going to change the outcome whether we down a boss or not? Is it going to change your standing in the guild? Will we sit people simply cause their class flat ass sux? My point is this: None of us is/are fighting for #1 dps spots in the world... it does not matter whether any of us make 38k dps in any given fight or 41 - or 43 or whatever. So there simply is no reason to whine about it (or state obvious facts as others would call it). Go by your own logic and transfer that to hunters... we should be doing more or less equally "bad" in most fights - and still you see our hunters topping the meters in pretty much every fight there is currently. How do you explain that? I am starting to lose my point.. so i will simply stop writing here.

you can, of course, twist everything around to make it sound like locks are useless... It also sounds like you are looking at everything from the perspective that locks should be the dominating force in everything. Imo that is just plain whining. Look at the rankings again... look at the class that is dead center dps wise for each fight in heroic 10 and 25... now compare the best warlock spec per fight (yeah i know switching sux, but hell.. it is possible) to THAT dead center number. Are you really still saying that locks are worst dps class? Sitting in the very middle is exactly where every class wants to be... from a design perspective. And if there is a variance of, say, 5% in each direction - then Blizzard did an AMAZING job with balancing everything. Sure - each expansion, boss fight, etc you have one class being slightly dominant... be it due to legendaries, mechanics or what ever else... but either way: Blizzard recognizes those things and fixes them later on. bottom line is: i clearly cannot make out an obvious problems with warlock in this expansion - though i can see they dont seem to be particularly strong (which is ok, just like hunters).

by 2nd pass? is it absolutely impossible to do it by first pass? (even with everyone being in position at the right time AND some ranged on it) and yes - i understand the point of trying to have everyone dps at all times... but that makes no sense if that ends up making the phase longer. A better solution would probably be this: Ranged start on east like we do all the time - but SWITCH OFF IT at ... say... 20/25%... this will allow us to switch to north earlier, down it earlier, switch to west earlier, down it earlier and while we do that last thing have meelee finish off east... win win, everyone dps'ing at all times and phase going faster.

well.. the only reason to di this would be if our meelee is unable to kill their first target repeatedly... other than that: stack in the middle! i still think that my first point is much more important anyways (and you have not answered it yet )

it wont dispell it no.. but you can run through em and wont get the increasing slow effect... more important was the first point though

also: your question was whether locks are the weakest class this expansion... only a look at the top parses can answer that for you anyways... only there everyone has about the same high gear level... and only there you will see class differences as opposed to skill differences anywhere else (assuming that each class has at least 200 parses from players with high skill) if you want median... just go to raidbots http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Madness_of_Deathwing/25H/all/14/60/median/#3vvvv set it up so you use all parses over whatever timeframe you desire and click median... locks are definitely not doing all that bad

i am not sure if the "one ranged group start on west others on east" works... i know everytime we switch from east to north to west we all have to move a bit to even reach west.... we might be too far apart for aoe heal if we do it that way i also had another idea in case meelee has problems downing the very first pillar: put a hunter or two into the group - great moving ranged dps plus they have masters call for not being slowed^^

#200 is a top parse pry