For those of you who stack stam

[Iammoot]

Before you read this!!!! The primary purpose of posting this is only to stir debate about stat stacking as a tank. For example, I saw that both Prydain and Nemesis are stacking stam alot in their bear between trinkets and gems. While it appears that this is still a viable strategy, a primary focus of each thread was pointing out that mastery, for most classes, does a good job of smoothing out the damage that you're taking. All that means is that, while mastery and other avoidance stats may provide a supposedly "RNG" damage mitigation--and let's be honest, it is RNG--they do a good job of making the damage more consistent. Consistent damage is easier to predict and, therefore, easier to heal. I'll let you make the decision for yourself, but I have found that I consistently take less damage than both Prydain (on the cho'gall fight we did on monday) and Nemesis, here and there.

Death Knights: From EJ: http://elitistjerks.com/f72/t110102-blood_%7C_dk_endgame_tanking_%5B4_x%5D/#Stats_and_gems

More speficially,

"Stats and gems

"Parry and dodge have the same rating and diminish at the same pace. They're equal now.

Reforge for Mastery, unless you need to reforge for hit/expertise (threat).

"How to gem is not yet conclusive, however there is a strong argument developing that you should bias avoidance and mastery rather than stamina.

"Runeforge: possibly swordshattering rather than gargoyle.

"There is no consensus yet on how to measure effective health, and most importantly, at what point EH ceases to be relevant. Mastery as a stat does not increase your classic EH, but increases your survival, as does avoidance which will be a more interesting stat choice in Cat than it was in WotLK. There is a long discussion here including maths, tables and formula if you'd like to contribute."

Warriors from EJ: http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t110315-%5Bcataclysm%5D_protection_warrior/

Specifically:

"Survival Stat Priority:

"Stamina > Mastery > Parry > Dodge

"Stamina is still your best stat, but not to the extent of sacrificing everything else as was the case in WotLK. Conserving healer mana is a very real concern now. Mastery is your best stat for smoothing out incoming physical damage, and also increases rage generation through blocks. Parry provides the same avoidance level as Dodge now, but also procs the Hold the Line talent. Dodge will become more valuable as gear ratings climb higher to reduce diminishing returns losses from over-stacking the other stats."

Paladins: http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t110338-cataclysm_tanking_protection_field_manual_updated_feb_9_2011_4_0_6_a/#Stat_Overview

Specifically:

"Now for a word or two about reforging. Reforging will allow you to shift stats around on gear to (hopefully) optimize your build by moving 40% of a secondary stat to another (even not present stat) on the same item. What does this mean for tanking Paladins? Now that blocks are no longer a fixed amount of mitigation but instead reduced damage by a certain percentage it is in our interest to try to block as much as possible. As such we want to reach the 102.4% total avoidance threshold (also referred to as "block cap" or "complete combat table coverage") that we have aimed for in the past. This pushes regular hits off the table so that any physical hit has to come through a block. Given that tanking Paladins should be reforging for Mastery as much as possible. Note though that is it unlikely you will be able to reach the 102.4% threshold early in Cataclysm. Until post 359 item level gear and epic gems are available ratings will be too low. Regardless, you want to get as close are you possibly can to the 102.4% threshold."

"The reforging (and gearing) strategy are aimed toward maximizing mastery to maximize your block chance. This is important for Paladins because being block capped smooths out the rate of incoming damage, reduces damage spikes, and makes it easier for your healers."

Finally, Druids (this is actually one of the sites I skimed that actually supports the above but only because thenature of your mastery is sketchy): http://elitistjerks.com/f73/t114069-%5Bferal-bear%5D_cataclysm_release/#Gems

Specifically:

"Your only real meta gem choice for tanking is [Austere Shadowspirit Diamond]. In specific cases you may find [Effulgent Shadowspirit Diamond] or [Powerful Shadowspirit Diamond] useful, but generally speaking Austere will be just fine.

For the rest you'll want stamina or hit for blue gems, crit, dodge, or mastery for yellows, and agility for reds. If you're ever in doubt you can default to [solid Ocean Sapphire], but be sure to keep your meta gem activated. Use Rawr or the spreadsheet to help you figure out what you need."

[Viledead]

- Parry and Dodge should never have greater than 2-3% difference, because of diminishing returns

- if you look at most top raiding tanks, they definitely are stacking mastery heavily, not stam.

- Hit/expertise are completely useless to stack on purpose b/c of vengeance. Looking at top raiding tanks, I see melee hit values under 1%

Honestly if people have issues with threat, it's not hit/expertise - player just needs to improve. Only issue with low hit is on initial pulls and convincing dps to count to 3 - which they never do....right axe??!

My tank doesn't follow these rules because he's tanking heroics, and having an AS miss on a pull is a sure wipe, and people still judge tanks on total stam. Remember when I was asking on Arj whether I'm heroic ready or now - everyone asked "what is your health." This caused me to research..

[Likesitruff]

Fuck health jsut dont be squishy like a mana sponge like moot

[Pwnzi]

Yes... tanks shouldn't be stacking stam. This is new news?

[Iammoot]

This is new news?

I only made this post because I saw Nemesis stacking stam trinkets and gems. I told him that he needed more mastery and he was quizzical. When I logged on later to talk with him about it, he was offline, so I figured that making a post on the forums--a general one at that--may be useful not only to him but to everyone else as well.

Tl;dr version: apologies if you find this redundant. It was meant for Nemesis anyway

[Likesitruff]

i thought stacking stam was FTW? like in wrath

[Rebelogic]

If you stack enough intellect, sometimes bosses invite you over for tea and heated political debates erupt. By the end however, poignant discourse dissolves into Yo Mama jokes. Bottom line, stacking Intellect as a tank has become less favorable than mitigation and avoidance. However, the term "Stacking" usually implies "Only do this", when often a slightly more moderate and balanced approach is recommended.

[Likesitruff]

Actually stacking intellect as a tank is starting to become viable, for a pally tank they will never go oom and for a warrior it gives them more rage to get more threat. Also same goes for a bear tank so they can shape shift more often in a fight. But for a DK it allows them to gain a ridicous amout of runic power check out the patch notes.

[Ulqui]

stam>mastery for dks

death strike and rune tap heals ftw

Edited June 1, 2011 by Ulqui

[Iammoot]

stam>mastery for dks

death strike and rune tap heals ftw

Quoted from EJ at 3:00 AM on 6/2/2011

"Stats and gems

[...]

How to gem is not yet conclusive, however there is a strong argument developing that you should bias avoidance and mastery rather than stamina.

[...]

Mastery as a stat does not increase your classic EH [Effective Health], but increases your survival, as does avoidance which will be a more interesting stat choice in Cat than it was in WotLK."

The post was updated for 4.1 on 4/27/2011

Edited June 2, 2011 by Iammoot

[Lyntha]

[quote name='Ulqui

[Likesitruff]

STAM STACKING FOR THE WIN ALL THE BEST TANKS DO IT!!!!!!!!

[Ulqui]

stam>mastery for dks

death strike and rune tap heals ftw

Quoted from EJ at 3:00 AM on 6/2/2011

"Stats and gems

[...]

How to gem is not yet conclusive, however there is a strong argument developing that you should bias avoidance and mastery rather than stamina.

[...]

Mastery as a stat does not increase your classic EH [Effective Health], but increases your survival, as does avoidance which will be a more interesting stat choice in Cat than it was in WotLK."

The post was updated for 4.1 on 4/27/2011

Stam only increases your Death Strike Healing if you are at the floor of damage taken. Dont forget that death strike goes off of your damage taken in the preceeding few seconds OR a % of your hp, whichever is greater. Sure, rune tap scales but how often do you use that? Surely not nearly as much as Death Strike. The people doing the theorycrafting are worrying about HEROIC content now, not normal content and heroic content is all about survivability and getting hit like a truck. You're getting hit so hard that your DS healing will almost never be based off of your max HP. Furthermore, great DK's are able to line up DS's to act as mini-CD's for damage bursts. They get hit a bit harder than other tanks but when it comes time for them to not die, a DK has all the tools necessary to guarantee his or her own survival. Blood shield plays a huge part into this niche so mastery is usually the preferred way to go for heroic content right now when it comes to DK's

rune tap is a 30 second cd (will of the necropolis resets this cd whenever the dk is brought below 30%), vampiric blood is a 1 minute cd... not to mention blood dk mastery is based off of death strike heals which means that more stamina indirectly means more mastery

i'm just going off experience as a healer healing a blood dk. we're able to 2 heal heroic conclave of the winds in 10 man because agroshibs doesn't need a healer because he can heal himself indefinitely, we were able to kill sinestra because agroshibs doesn't need healing at all because death strike spams pretty much get him topped, he's able to tank 2 bosses at once for heroic omnotron and not die, he's able to tank onyxia in p1 and nef for p3 without a healer... etc...

i only have a level 80 dk and haven't played him since wotlk, but agroshibs tanks so well with them with average gear that i'd think he knows what he's doing

Edited June 3, 2011 by Ulqui

[Iammoot]

The fact that he doesn't need a healer is only because his health pool is so large that he has the time to react to damage spikes. The Point of View of EJ is not how much healing you need but how much damage you can reduce/mitigate. Sure, it works for him, but you're in a top end raiding guild where a dk tank has to be able to do that kind of self healing in order to remain competitive with block tanks.

The point of mastery for warriors and paladins is to incease our block which isn't actually avoidance but more of a mitigation stat. The further a tank is from the 102.4% minimum avoidance, the spikier the damage he takes is. Blood DK mastery is meant to act as a block since they don't have shields and therefore don't have the armor/mitigation of other tanks (which they also make up for with ridiculous amounts of self healing).

Finally, the article does not state definitively that mastery is the best stat to gem for, but that it merely increases survivability. However, if Agroshibs is able to keep himself alive without a healer than he is definitely doing something right. However, I've noticed that Death Knight tanks have a much larger spectrum of variable damage taken because there are so many ways to play the role as a tank. Some DK tanks take alot more damage than others because they don't have the timing or experience to mitigate damage like block tanks can naturally do.

Whatever works, I suppose. I've seen tanks in guilds who were doing heroics a month or two into cata who were stacking stam and they did well enough without the mastery. Mastery doesn't actually reduce the total amount of damage you take too much in the long run, but simply makes it less spikey. That's the reasoning behind warrior/paladin mastery stacking, but otherwise I'm just quoting EJ.

[Ulqui]

The fact that he doesn't need a healer is only because his health pool is so large that he has the time to react to damage spikes. The Point of View of EJ is not how much healing you need but how much damage you can reduce/mitigate. Sure, it works for him, but you're in a top end raiding guild where a dk tank has to be able to do that kind of self healing in order to remain competitive with block tanks.

The point of mastery for warriors and paladins is to incease our block which isn't actually avoidance but more of a mitigation stat. The further a tank is from the 102.4% minimum avoidance, the spikier the damage he takes is. Blood DK mastery is meant to act as a block since they don't have shields and therefore don't have the armor/mitigation of other tanks (which they also make up for with ridiculous amounts of self healing).

Finally, the article does not state definitively that mastery is the best stat to gem for, but that it merely increases survivability. However, if Agroshibs is able to keep himself alive without a healer than he is definitely doing something right. However, I've noticed that Death Knight tanks have a much larger spectrum of variable damage taken because there are so many ways to play the role as a tank. Some DK tanks take alot more damage than others because they don't have the timing or experience to mitigate damage like block tanks can naturally do.

Whatever works, I suppose. I've seen tanks in guilds who were doing heroics a month or two into cata who were stacking stam and they did well enough without the mastery. Mastery doesn't actually reduce the total amount of damage you take too much in the long run, but simply makes it less spikey. That's the reasoning behind warrior/paladin mastery stacking, but otherwise I'm just quoting EJ.

i suppose varies in fight.. heroic nef takes our tanks down to about 30-50% when they run out of cds for electrocute (who stack stam), and not to mention shadowflame breath normally comes at the same time which i can't really see someone gemming for block survive unless they have cds from a pally or priest.....and i can see a tank dying pretty quick on p2 heroic al'akir unless they're a pally or death knight since melee is such a small portion of the dmg

Edited June 6, 2011 by Ulqui

[Lyntha]

i suppose varies in fight.. heroic nef takes our tanks down to about 30-50% when they run out of cds for electrocute (who stack stam), and not to mention shadowflame breath normally comes at the same time which i can't really see someone gemming for block survive unless they have cds from a pally or priest.....and i can see a tank dying pretty quick on p2 heroic al'akir unless they're a pally or death knight since melee is such a small portion of the dmg

Shadowflame breath comes randomly. But onto the topic of CD's for nef...

A DK is absolutely OP for Nef when not tanking adds. Between Mirror (1 Min), AMS (45), Bone Shield (1 Min) and Vamp Blood (1 Min), a DK can afford to have not one but TWO cd's available every single electrocute. In our 25 man, we get an electrocute every 45 seconds or so so it stands to reason that you could rotate them every other electrocute if not even more aggressively. Not to mention, the DK can DS when it happens too. I remember seeing a WoL Parse from a DK doing heroic nef and his CD coverage was almost perfect. He had CD's up for almost the whole fight. As a Pally Tank, if I dont have mirror I dont even have a CD for every single electrocute.

Speaking of moot, why the hell are we having me tank Nef and a DK tank adds? For now on, we're having a DK tank nef.

Edited June 6, 2011 by Snuggelbunny

[Iammoot]

Speaking of moot, why the hell are we having me tank Nef and a DK tank adds? For now on, we're having a DK tank nef.

TRY TO CHANGE THE STRAT! I DARE YOU! @_@

[Lyntha]

Speaking of moot, why the hell are we having me tank Nef and a DK tank adds? For now on, we're having a DK tank nef.

TRY TO CHANGE THE STRAT! I DARE YOU! @_@

The strat sucks. Block tanks are OP for adds, DK tanks are op for boss. I see a clear path to winning here.

[Iammoot]

The strat sucks. Block tanks are OP for adds, DK tanks are op for boss. I see a clear path to winning here.

nou

[Lyntha]

The strat sucks. Block tanks are OP for adds, DK tanks are op for boss. I see a clear path to winning here.

nou

[Iammoot]

exactly

[Ulqui]

[quote name='Ulqui

[Iammoot]

[quote name='Ulqui

[Lyntha]

[quote name='Ulqui

[Ghostwind]

I have personally tried stam stacking while capping exp, pure mastery, and a balanced approach to gearing/gemming/reforging and I personally feel that when I hold 180k unbuffed health and then going mastery while strategically taking socket bonuses and reforging for the exp cap or close to it is the best way to go. For normal modes and last tiers heroics I feel that the balanced setup is best. Not reforging away all of my avoidance has really shined on Baleroc when I can take the entire devastation phase pretty close to solo. But I don't have a healers perspective because ruff and bash dont pay attention. They just think prydain is squishy is hell and I'm fine to heal on whatever we're doing. That prolly has something to do with the amount of cooldowns I have though. We'll see what happens when we get into heroic modes.