Tourettsbear

There is some cheesy things you can do, like bring hunter+shaman (or mage) and have 2x blood lusts if they have nether ray pet.

If you pre-coordinate cooldowns for pulls too it makes it a lot easier. Like when we went we sort of went on the fly. My bro was telling me "Get a piece of paper, write down all the cool downs and the timers, and then pre-prep" I actually think there are group comp cds .

It's not at all "can we be more hardcore though"? If we're currently sitting people after 4 extra attempts..what I'm asking is "Can we not make 4 extra attempts" and can we sit them now.

Bash, You are a solid example.. I wish everyone under similar circumstances as you should follow the same lead.

It's just interesting because you had myself, Kansir, Nerita.... and multiple people bring it up..Yet you still look at it as being more hardcore.. I look at is as not wasting time. With this current method, and logic, you're wasting time.

On progression nights why not make 10pm (or any other time) the cut off point. Still award EPGP to those get sat. But starting at 10 or 9:50 people who have had low performance or who aren't optimal for the boss get sat.

That's a good suggestion..But honsetly, I don't think it needs to be that cut and dry.. Like Iron Maidens is the perfect example.

End of night Tuesday we knew who should probably be sat.. But Wed fresh day.. 4 or 5 attempts if the performance isnt better we sit.

I mean, its a yes or no question though.. Can you please answer.

I've said once before that I'm not asking for it to be 2-3, I don't think a static number should be placed..but I think if we know we can down the boss after 10 wipes. if we drop people not up to par. Rather than getting 8 more wipes worth of data THEN benching people.. The question isnt "Can we be more hardcore" I'm asking if we can make these decisions faster?

so you're agreeing with me.. They were sat due to issuse?

Now..If there are issues..can we be quicker to sit people? 

That's not always the case.

 

Ghost has been tanking for a while and changed to DPS for the betterment of the raid and was trying to learn a new spec while adjusting to a new fight AND a new role.  His DPS gear is also out of date since he has tanking for a while and prioritizing upgrades with that in mind.

 

Bash was undergeared and still getting used to playing boomkin.  That excuses the performance (Or at least explains it, because bash is normally a great player) but doesn't excuse the deaths.

 

Cabel plays destro, which isn't great on IM.  Locks period aren't oustanding on IM, but destro is the worst by far on it.  Destro as a spec is otherwise plenty good enough to play as your main spec, but it's just very poor on this fight.

 

Im honestly not sure why we sat Imcute because he wasn't doing awful, but his spec is also not that great on IM.  Mastric's native spec towers over the other two locks' specs on this fight.

 

Some people just got sat because of performance issues that weren't related to long-term average performance issues.

Those are still issues? It's just not 100% there fault.. It is still an issue though? 

I feel like I am constantly just explaining my actions to people at this point when they are nearly always well thought-out, and it's getting tiring.

 

I'm not saying that I'm always right.  Far from it.  I make plenty of mistakes and admit them.  I also welcome constructive criticism at any time as well.  If I do something though, I typically do it for a good reason that made sense at the time.

Your throwing numbers out there...that don't match with the numbers i'm looking at..One of isn't looking at accurate information.. 

Also, I never said gump.. But since you've mentioned him.. I don't think you're giving him enough credit.. i think he can perform much better..Maybe not Methods level of play like you said. But I don't think it's too much for the guild to ask our raider's to perform better.  I think if you help Gump, he will be stronger. 

I think you dance around question's in a weird way. So are you saying that we would have downed Iron Maidens in the same amount of attempts regardless of dropping people ? (we wouldnt have) the warcraft log data...doesn't imply that at all...My question is "Can we sit people who aren't performing quicker" .. Is your answer really no to this?

Also, are you kidding me? If you put 0 effort towards being better you're not going to get better, which means you can't become skilled.. Some people are just skilled at things, other people have to work hard to get there.. But they can get there  it may just take a little help.. But if you make a WA to see when you can pop a trinket so you use it more efficiently is becoming more skilled..

lower performance on a boss falls under mistakes..It means there is issues somewhere. 

 

1.)  Even high-end guilds need to adjust and get used to mechanics.  It's not fair to sit people as soon as they make a mistake.  There's a balance between letting people get used to mechanics, and sitting people to push progression.  You are also forgetting something very important as well - The more people that we kill a boss with, the more loot we get and the better geared our raid is.  We cannot just drop down to 15 for IM every week because gearing will then just be much slower.  Not only is there less loot variety, but there's less overall loot as well.  I clearly sat people last week during our first serious full night of attempts on IM as a kill was imminent and it was progression but I don't plan on sitting as many people for our second kill.

 

 

That's not what I said though. I'm saying on progression bosses when people are dieing to ridiculous things regularly.. Iron maidens is an example.. There were people messing up the 9 attempts on tuesday, and the 10+ attempts on Wednesday..Then we finally sat them..and we downed the boss. Your point about gear doesnt make any sense becuase I'm strictly talking progression bosses..not farm bosses where people can show up and get gear.  If people in the raid on our second grouping of attempts are causing us to wipe all night.. We should be quicker to sit them.

I'm going to take your response as no..but just so you know, its not just me requesting this..it's the 15-16 other people who think we're wasting a lot of time trying to carry people. But, I think its ridiculous that requesting people to perform better or be benched isnt a concept that the entire guild can be behind. 

 

2.)  Immediately punishing people for an ass-pull is understandable, but we are being slower on punishing people for lateness until they can adjust.  After hearing feedback from a lot of people, we are also relaxing our definition of late a bit as well.  We are still starting EP ticks at 7:30 but we really just want people to be there by the time we get to the first boss.  If somebody can only be on at 7:35 every day, it doesn't really affect the raid too much.  Lastly, I am not sure if we need to actually give out EP minuses for people being late if they are already losing EP via missing EP ticks.  It's sort of double punishing somebody.  What are everyone's thoughts on this?

 

I'm referring to the people who are late coming after break.. Those people are still getting EP with no minus.

 

 

3.)  Not sure.  We want to gear our raid as quickly as possible via the path of least resistance and I'm not seeing much discussion on the difficulty of mythic HM bosses vs the harder heroic BRF bosses.  Do you have anything you can link me towards on this topic?  The only thing I have to go off of right now is wowprogress numbers.  In a single tier, if more guilds have downed Boss A than have downed Boss B, boss B is typically harder.  With Mythic Highmaul, it's a bit more difficult since they are basically like half-tiers.  Looking at boss kill stats, we can see that 8% of guilds have killed Heroic Blast Furnace, but 6% to 4% of guilds have killed Mythib Brackenspore, Butcher and Tectus.  Comparing them is difficult, so feel free to point me towards any discussion on the matter so we can be better informed.  We also have to consider that we can drop down to a 15-man or so slimmed down group for a blast furnace kill but we can't do so for mythic fights.

 

Regarding the last thing you said:  A lot of the people who are consistently lower performers aren't there due to lack of effort, it's due to lack of skill, which is something that they cannot control.  Drawing the line on this is difficult if somebody is trying their best.  We're not a hardcore guild.

 

If we slim down to 15 people...that is EXACTLY what im suggesting in point number 1 which you said no to? 

As for my statement.. Lack of effort=lack of skill... I'm not asking for hard core numbers. I am how-ever asking that if youre going to raid on a class...you should probably know how to play that class. We have a lot of tools for people to be better.. WA, Guides, simc, hell just ask and I'll do most of this homework for anyone. But not doing anything to be better is stupid.

Yeah I'm with the guy above me. Most people in the raid know why we're wiping on progression bosses we just don't say anything. And the argument everyone has to see/learn the fight shouldn't really apply after attempt 7 maybe 10. Mistakes happen but at some point a players lack of ability shouldn't be qualified as a mistake anymore. I don't care about carrying someone for farm bosses cause at this point one or two shots and the boss is dead time to move on. 

Exactly, who cares about farm bosses really. 

I was going to make a new topic but decided to tack on to this one instead. I have some question's.

1) Can we be quicker to sit people who are under performing, or inadequately performing on progression bosses? Currently we waste almost half of the raid night wiping and wiping, only to make it to break.. Then we wipe 3-4 more times before we decide to sit people who fall into this category. I understand the logic that this is a casual guild raid, but if the people who aren't performing aren't willing or able to step up to a decent level then why should the other 16-18 people suffer? (Iron Maidens is an example of this). I mean, it kind of falls under rule 2 of this post.. Stop wasting others time. 

2) The rules stated in this post are piss-poorly being followed. People are constantly late without an EP minus.. Yet, people who face pull are being charged ep.. Is this going to be addressed?

3) Is the order of progression going to be Iron maidens> Blast Furnace? or Iron maidens > M-Twins? I think skipping blast furnace for now might be better.. Some of the Mythic bosses are much easier than Blast Furnace and Blackhand. But keep in mind, if people are performing inadequately we will have to sit people for that boss as well. 

The people who feel that my inadequate performance comment is directed at.. You're probably right.. It's not me saying you're playing poorly though. It's ATR's logs. If you'd like to know who you are go there and look to see what you did, and what you can do better. If you don't put any effort into being better..Why should you deserve to be there for a boss kill?

:| #NO.

#DOESN'TWANTTOWIPEONKROMOG #STUDDYLOLOLOL

I don't think Mort was being too annoying, just asking a question... though the last comment seemed unnecessary and the first was a bit off. Overall, 1/3.. not terrible.

 

Mort, if I can, I want to tell you something: why people are finding you annoying... because I feel like you don't understand why or believe it's something else.

 

It isn't some bias against you. That's gone. If I'm wrong and there are instances recently where you've been picked at by people then feel free to tell me, but as far as I've seen recently you are not a scapegoat through any means other than when you bring it upon yourself. Frequently, whenever someone is screwing up or doing something wrong and they don't get sat you redirect the attention back at yourself for a pity party saying something like:

 

"if that was me i would be kicked from guild"

 

No. No you would not. Because there is no bias against you anymore. It's gone. If you did the same thing they did you would get treated the same at this point and your constant need to be pitied is getting on a lot of people's nerves. Tonight, for example, Pikachu died to the trains a lot and you redirected the attention to yourself saying if you were doing that you'd be kicked. Yet, the rest of the night you actually became just as terrible as Pikachu at dodging trains and..... what happened? Were you sat? Kicked from guild? Yelled at? No. You got the same treatment Pikachu did. Quite frankly, the more you do this -- the trying to direct attention back to yourself and pretend like you're still a bullied nerd in high school -- the more likely it will happen again.

 

Something called "self-fulfilling prophecy".

 

If you keep acting like you're a victim, keep trying to repeat over and over again how mistreated you are, keep redirecting the attention of another person failing to try and get pity.. eventually what you keep saying is happening will actually happen. Keep acting like a victim, you'll be a victim. People will get so fed up with your pessimistic, self-pitying attitude that they'll lash out at you for it and you don't stop. People tell you to stop but you refuse to admit you are anything but a victim like tonight when TBear said "yeah sure, you'd be kicked" ONLY to tell you what you wanted to hear and not because it was the truth. It was a lie.

 

Honestly... TBear is showing you what will inevitably happen although he is not lashing out intensely. TBear is not a person that could even have bias. He was not here in the past, he's still decently new, so he has no real idea about how you were before your return and furthermore has made clear efforts beforehand to disregard what he's been told and give you a new start. But now he is a bit snippy with you and sometimes can't stand you (not trying to call you out TBear, just trying to make a point). People are going to start turning on you not because of the past or any bias but because you won't stop trying to get pity and won't stop complaining about mistreatment that doesn't exist anymore. This is why people find you annoying and it needs to stop. It needs to stop when people tell you to and it needs to stop now because it's clear the officers have given you warnings and you aren't heeding them.

 

You are no longer a victim, you act like one. Just let the past go and move on because at this point you're only making a fairly neutral situation for yourself bad.

 

Okay?

Roqwell for Prime Minister 2016.

Snug was there the first time we downed it.

Mort, stop being annoying. The point is asking them to get enchanted with emphasis on the rules. 

A bit of gold is what ever they can afford, if that number is 0 then that number is 0.. The point is to get enchanted..

They may not be removed from the raid, but they could be penalized in other ways.

You've been asked to stop being annoying numerous times since your Action plan, yet you continue to tread that line.. Cut it out.

Guys, I bought a bunch of enchanting material and placed them in the guild bank. If you're using Breath on ILVL 670+ Gear, you're doing it wrong.

Please ask one of the officers for an enchant. The cost is a shard, but if you don't have a shard, assist with the guild by providing a bit of gold.. There is NO reason people aren't enchanted correctly at this state in BRF.

Chillr, Nerita, Crimsontrail,

Lyntha is a perfect example guys. His 670+ gear has gift on it, and his 665- gear has breath.

5.)  All members must be prepared with Seals, Flasks and Enchantments prior to start of raid time.  We are wasting too much time handing out flasks during raid.  Maintain a stack of your own flasks or talk to the officers/Kansir after raid or before raid for flasks when you get low.  Failure to have flasks or enchantments will lead to you being removed from the raid team.

I mean, It sounds harsh to be removed from the raid team, but come on, we're really not asking you guys for much.. In fact, In most cases, I'm literally GIVING you the materials needed to help ATR succeed. Please, enchant your shit properly. 

If Mytho doesn't show up, we should really do a Heroic HM tonight.. Iaxe could tank it, and it would help us quick gear an alt new members (My alt).

That, or run a normal BRF group.

What kind of sick fuck makes robot kids...

In realness, that's pretty cool you're doing that. So good luck on the programming. I find 10 0011 10101 works well, but only because clutch told me so.

we would hate to be forced to kick you. Stop being disruptive, and annoying, and it will no longer be an issue.

you both have the exact amount of posts.. It's pretty crazy.

I like how your profile pic is "You wouldnt download a bear"

Close to my heart.

#INB4SHEHASABFTBEAR!

in all seriousness, I did apologize to Will for that. I don't think it's accurate reason as to why he was put on this warning plan. It was never discussed as a reason, and should not have been said. 

Yea, the problem is though, Will isn't racist, he's just speciest. He doesn't care if we're black, white, yellow, pink, purple, green, blue, yellow, pink, orange, green, black, or white. He see's 2 Legs and assumes we're apes.

It's also why fights like paragons of the klaxxi, and Iron maidens, will be easier for him mechanically. He will always run to the red light.

You may rub his belly 8 times, but not 9.

There is a certain amount of hypocrisy with the officers and it's been pointed out a lot in this post and in the past. However, to make a general conclusion of that topic, I think it's mostly being dealt with and done with.

 

Yes, the officers do still go against the rules like last night when we were waiting to start because officers needed to talk with people but it wasn't intentional breaking of the rules. Nor are any of the other times the officers broke the rules intentional like with a bias to certain members. They were things that passively became a habit and were looked over by the officers because as with what most people do; it's easy to criticize another but difficult to find the faults in yourself.

 

The officers have all greatly improved on being less bias and holding up to the rules themselves but like everyone they still screw up here and there. The difference is, now the officers are trying to be more diligent in punishing themselves and trying to fix the problems they cause. It's not from them thinking the rules don't apply to them, but from forgetting the rules still apply to them.

 

A lot of this post, I feel, keeps talking about the past. Not just the past like yesterday or last week but the last month, last half year, last expansion, and as I said before: people learn and change. Things change from day to day and in general I feel like things are changing for the better. Last night was very fun and enjoyable despite the little screw-ups some people had which were dealt with quickly and we all moved on. Things change every day and honestly, it seems like everyone keeps focusing more on the past than the present and especially more on the past than the future.

 

These rules have barely been implemented yet and for the most part they seem fair. Most of them are rules that I came in expecting like, don't be late regularly, come enchanted and prepared, know your class, etc. etc. and to me it's a little weird seeing them have to be reiterated over and over again; so I guess restating what should have been a given isn't some set of ridiculously set rules out of the blue... it's what always should have been. These rules aren't as strict as some people make them out to be and as Snugg said they don't pertain to most of the raiding core, just a select few.

 

All this past talk just becomes tiring and it's difficult to stop holding onto the past, especially where you felt wronged, but there reaches a point (that I feel most of the raiding core have met) where you need to just move on and focus about bettering the present/future than fixing the past which.. as far as it's concerned factually.. you can't change. Time is a permanent mark and we can't go back but we can definitely guide the future.

Roq for Prime Minister 2016.

Ansky, I'm not interested in raiding in an environment that 

a) people show up unenchanted

people wipe to the same mechanics over and over

c) people call eachother terrible things and down right mean to eachother..

If it's not monitored, the above happens.. It's silly, because it's so little..yet everyone finds it sincerely difficult to do.

You and I are the perfect example of something.

You were apped to this guild under the basis of a 2 day casual raid schedule where you have fun.

I apped to this guild under the basis that this was a 2 day progression mindset. where you have fun.

There is little difference between the two..But, I'm currently feeling jipped of the agreement which was made to me when being accepted to this guild.. You're currently feeling jipped as the you feel the casualness is gone.

I think these new rules address both. Casual, Fun, enjoying the raid is what we're after. While still progressing. I find it disrespectful to ATR to show up unenchanted.. I honestly take that as "You dont care how well we do". It has nothing to do with hard core/casual..Just respecting eachothers goals..

EVERYONE can get what they want from raiding in this guild if we respect each others goals.

To say I'm only deflecting and not admitting that I do sometimes talk too much or step over the lines with somethings i say is complete bullshit. I'll easily admitt I'm not the easiest person to get a long with, however I was invited back to this guild with the understanding that I would have a clean slate and this has not been the case. Sure I might need to look at myself about some things but so do you. To simply say all I do is deflect and take no blame is just an easy out for you and I expect more from a person in your position. The stigma from me being kicked on false pretenses has continued to stay with me and the officers have done nothing but help further that and not to prevent or end it as it should be done. I'm not asking for people to like me, I'm not asking for a pitty party, all I want is to be left alone and let raid. It's just that simple. I'm over being the scapegoat for everything when theres no need for it. These clearly an unequal treament of people in this guild which has been brought up in other posts in this topic, yet you just skip over that and don't address it. Also as far as gump calling me a racist, that is a completly slanderous claim and I am owed an apology for such a bold and false claim made against me. TLDR: just everyone stop fucking with me and just let me show up and raid and you won't have issues with me.

Will, it is true, a biased has been set against you. I personally do not have it. I consider you an extreme personality who is fun to be around.

How do you propose we fix this? You've rubbed some people the wrong way. We all want you to continue raiding with us man. The "action plan" has been set.. But outside of that, give me some positive feedback on how you think we can make the raid environment a stronger place for you. If you have valid suggestions, I'll enforce them myself..