Viledead

Sorry to hear snugg - hope he's alright.

Blame blizz for tuning fights by DPS requirements

That sounds like a rage quit - coachtaylor doesn't approve. Clear Eyes...

Do you stick to holdem or branch out to raz/omaha/etc? oh PS good luck..

world series of poker? pro or amateur?

I think general consensus is +haste to doomguard is difficult to predict. Don't know what overall impact of haste on doomguard is to dps on a fight like ultraxion. But if scaling factors are: int=3.5, haste=2.0, mastery=2.5, then with the long ICD on IOTCM the dps increase to doomguard needs to be pretty massive to make up for losing 422 int (for normal) or 322 int (for LFR). You are getting about 6-8 extra casts on average I think at best, at 30k if 1/2 are crits (a big assumption), for 240k dps...which is 800 dps on a 5 min fight....and the int difference for LFR WoU should result in over 1k dps. Back of the napkin math, but thought I'd see where it went.

I'm not sure if the dps is that small, but either way it's an increase over insignia and hell everyone should already have WoU. I bet LFR WoU is better than normal insignia.

Regarding Warlocks: Yeah - only destro can take it, with help. Destro isn't the lowest dps spec on this fight - in fact all 3 are close. Demo wins, aff just behind destro (zero movement). HOWEVER - what I can say is that wipes on ultrax come early and often sometimes - which means demo doesn't have doomguard at the start when all procs are nicely lined up. So demo dps fluctuates a lot. Re: berms macro & applying to warlocks, only thing that could be added is a fel flame really. Can't assume to refresh any dots. PS sefi - you don't have WoU?

I do ultimately like the warlock class, but with all the alts I have I can say that they are more capable to contribute better to a raid with less effort for a casual. MoP looks interesting - I hope Demo is the best spec. Destro is unique with the fire self-burning, but it's only a matter of time before they kill the self-dmg. Imagine that on chimaeron? I think it will be fun to have a warlock alt at the time..

Sefi I know and agree that right now with the nerfs it's "bring the player not the class." Hell a highly skilled frost mage would be fine at this point in nerfs/progression. But it's frustrating that the fundamental issues with locks this expac were only expanded on, not solved. And I'm not sure about this health-as-a-resource in MoP. I might main change, sooner than later. Edit: the primary reason I've stuck to a warlock is because as a casual player I can generally always find something on short notice as the least played class (was tied with rogues, but hello orange pokers!). For instance as other locks know, BH class runs are insta-invites lol. Of course that makes the case for Lock-as-an-alt for DS alt runs.

Hey Mord no prob. Yeah an orange stick and an OP trinket would help a lot.. But really even without it's possible to do some pretty crazy dps - i don't know if VPLC/insignia are better than WoU - as far as I know WoU > all in every case. Not an expert on mage trinks tho...but following the "int > all" idea means WoU is the one to keep, and potentially replace the other one. Also Rath (the 1 hand dagger) did a fair amount of dmg for me. But not sure if that means it's better than a better weapon with higher stats. I really think once you scorch less, time combustion and impact better, and only fireblast for impact....you'll do great dps..

Sazda I know we're not in a top 100 guild, but I always want my performance to be as if I am. Even despite lower gear, less attendance (and therefore less experience), etc. Sure given ATR progression it doesn't matter as much, but that is not what I am reviewing. Hell we can have 2 fire mages doing 40k or less dps and still down H Yor. As a warlock in ATR I'm fine. So, you asked "based on what." Shit-tons of blogs, forum posts, etc. I do not write on here ideas that only sit in my head because I'm crying in my beer - this is from constant reading and research about my primary PvE class. I absorb information about warlocks constantly. I don't write it all here because it's a novel. So when I say "hagara: sit locks. move on" - it's a summary point that warlocks are terribly weak on this encounter. @snuggl re hagara. Warlock dps takes rampup - so hagara +dmg debuff is too short - we have to set up dots/etc and by then debuff is over. Exactly same issue as spine. Aff is ok for multi-dotting, but of course other dot classes are better. So call it what you want, but 2/8 DS fights you are gimping the raid by bringing warlocks. Again, assuming everything else is equal (no carries, equal skill, etc). FYI I don't whine. I just don't feel like structuring a harvard business review whitepaper about it with propositions and defensible logic. I summarized instead.

You keep reverting to the "forest view" - where I'm down in the trees to change which forest you are looking at. And all you seem to focus on is top 100 parses. And it's not "QQ/whining" - these are valid observations on the state of the warlock class for this expac. Re switching: sure switching specs is "possible" - but stats are so radically different that it's not economical. So after downing H Yor I should zone out, reforge everything and zone back in for hagara?

Ok, even if I agree (which I don't) here is the summary. Of course, each fight requires different spec and itemization/reforging. And it still ignores raid utility, burst potential (key for many fights), etc. All are heroic: Madness: Aff locks. The supposedly premier dot-based spec/class rank behind shadow priests, fire mages, and balance druids. Behind boomkins in T13! Spine: Spine is about bursting tendons. Locks can't burst tendons. Overall dps doesn't matter. Moving on. Warmaster: Aff sits at #5, again behind boomkins and fire mages. But of course is this fight really about spreading dots everywhere, or is that meter whoring? Hmm…. Plus aff and demo are useless on sappers, except maybe glyphed shadow flame. Destro for shadow fury has saved ATR raids many-a-time. Hey, a useful raid tool! Ultraxion: Oh Hai Patchwerk. Lets go down the list…warrior, rogue, mage, hunter, ret pally, shadow priest, Oh hello Demonology! At least locks are ahead of boomkins. Hagara: Sit your warlocks. Moving on. Yor'Sahj: Demo, the premier AoE spec is behind Fire mages, hunters, shadow priests, warriors, boomkins, and ele shamans. Demo, the *former* AoE king. Zon'ozz: Aff is ok, again sitting behind the usual fire mages, shadow priests, etc. Morchok: The one fight where Destro should own meters due to Bane of Havoc…still sit behind rogue, fire mage, shadow priest. We should call Cataclysm the Shadowpriest Expansion - they've been topping meters all expac. All in all Blizz struggles with warlocks - soul swap and bane of agony created special balance problems. Plus pet issues (mostly shared with hunters) are always an issue. Then of course doomguard issues - dps is balanced around this too, and fights like hagara they are only 1/2 useful, spine even worse.

Well it's all speculation without looking at the numbers. But I bet it curves dramatically up from bottom 10% to top 10% starts around 50-60%.

What raidbot should do is take the middle - say from below top 10% down to top 50%. That would give a better true representation I'd think.

Was asked to provide some tips here re: fire mage. Obviously my mage in H Yor tonight was basically LFR gear, but was competitive enough. EDIT: i'm tired so this may or may not be complete, or completely accurate. Notes from the Log (when yor went down): (PS I made TONS of mistakes! But this is looking for obvious issues). Mord cast fireball 24 times, I casted it 85 times. He's scorching WAY more. Only reasons I can think of is movement or no mana. Combustion: 60 ticks vs 212 ticks. My 212 ticks is actually low too. I did 4.3 million dmg with combustion, mord did 900k. Don't cast flamestrike so much. Blastwave has the fs effect, so you don't need it that much. Spreading LB is more important. Never use fireblast unless there's an impact (25 vs 6). Beginner: Quite simply it's all about combustion and impact. Don't worry about Pyro dot if you are having issues overall. Living Bomb and Ignite are the big ones. Don't even worry about how good the ignite is either. Getting something off is better than nothing (which is the difference between your 50k+ dps and 35k dps). Handling the more advanced tips will take you to 70k+++. If you find yourself missing an impact proc due to timing issues, you need to consider saving Flame Orb. Also Blast Wave hitting adds should proc it. Keep it for combustion, just to be save. Don't tab target to apply living bomb to adds. Only mana void. Treat Yorsahj like your "dps pillar" - everything applies to him, then you spread by impact. For Yorsahj, use evocate right after the first mana void drops. Then occasionally use the mana gems. Slightly Advanced: Save trinks/etc to buff LB/ignite before combustion/impact. impact the slime when adds are around it. Don't tab target I know SimC says mastery is great a lot of the time - but it doesn't take into account fight mechanics/etc. For instance, crit is apparently great for AoE (this is why you are seeing the 1505 haste soft cap then crit specs). Other Notes: DTR is the best caster weapon. No conversation. Cunning of the cruel is amazing for this fight. Both raiding mages are capable of hitting 60-70k+ dps. I highly recommend to not quickly rush back to Arcane - outside of heroic spine, fire out performs arcane. Seriously, arcane kind of sucks right now. And you won't get better with fire if you don't play it full time while raiding - timing combustion takes practice. If your curious, my self assessment of my performance is pretty poor too. I only used mirror images twice, racial not enough, and i casted scorch too much. I am really at the mercy of RNG with the shit gear, but honestly I think with practice I can get comfortably to 45-50k dps in the same gear. And with "average" luck. And not on a laptop with 1/2 size keys on shitty internet.

sazda that is top parses - not exactly a barometer of a class's standard performance (ie tricks/PI/etc etc). check out raidbots.

We don't have 3 viable specs - locks have 3 specs of which any 1 is the "most" viable spec for any 1 given fight. And for 2 fights locks are not viable at all other than buff bots (hagara, spine). At least until gear/nerfs increase.

Not complaining actually, and I"m mostly comparing locks to mages and spriests as I highly prefer ranged casters (as evidenced by my alts). Also where do you get your stats on how close locks and hunters are? A quick look shows hunters well ahead on say h ultrax vs any lock spec. Also you have 1 spec that mostly does it all, locks have to switch fight to fight to stay remotely competitive. Two specs generally share same reforging (destro/aff) - but sometimes they sim quite differently. The 3rd, demo, is radically different.

Thought I'd throw up thoughts on Warlocks this expansion. T11 was quite good for locks - especially affliction. However, T12 and T13 has seen nerfs (mostly PvP related that impacted PvE), and stat inflation that have pushed warlock viability down. The only other spec/class that warlocks can probably identify with are boomkins in this regard, however for warlocks it's all 3 specs. The truth is if I changed my main to my mage or shadowpriest, geared it out a tiny bit more, I would immediately contribute significantly more to the raid! Not saying I'm going to do that, but it's true. Warlocks are middle-of-the-pack buff botting, cookie creating, summoning bitches. All of the below assumes normalized skill. Let the QQ begin. Perhaps the most frustrating part is that Warlocks are a pure DPS class, and often aren't particularly competitive against other pure dps classes or even hybrids. No burst when it matters. While people think we can burst as Demo, we are horrible for spine (too short). Or for hagara when debuff is up. AoE. Fire mages are flat out better at AoE. In fact, on Yorsahj, any way you look at it demo is middle of the pack, and outside of top parses they fall even further. Shadowpriests can out-aoe any lock outside of a demo lock with all CDs blown, by pressing 1 button. Warlocks are terrible on Hagara. Madness: as a dot-based class, we aren't as good as spriests or mages. Multi-dotting - spriests and fire mages do it better, with better results. Awkwardness: Destro: soulfire. Demo: 13-14 dps buttons, pet twisting in T12/early T13 (still situationally useful). The only fluid spec is probably affliction. Even a fight like H Morchok that has a gimmick for Destro Locks (bane of havoc)....locks still aren't top dps. Shadowpriests have the benefits of all 3 warlock specs rolled into 1 fluid spec. Warlocks are balanced around having an orange staff. If you don't have one, you'll never compete dps-wise, even against non-orange-using classes. Also, cunning of the cruel is required for AoE.

replacing DTR came up as a discussion?

Sazda it's mostly about getting off an amazing combustion/impact. For instance timing dot (ignite/Living bomb/pyro one) refreshes with CD usage, then combustion/impact. For those who don't know Blast Wave, fire orb, etc are all great for triggering impact. Sometimes if people are not familiar with fire, they struggle with fire's "big moment". Also with spreading dots. HIGHLY RECOMMENDED: An addon called "CombustionHelper" - very helpful. Demo locks too - spamming hellfire is great and all, but much more can be done. For instance, for a great AoE burst you also want to be sure to get off hand of guldan where adds are before hitting felstorm. Also as a side note, fire is incredibly RNG. In just LFR on my fire mage I'll see swings of 5-7k dps on even ultrax, week to week.

Yeah when viledead started DS I was 372. My mage is currently 378 equipped and was good enough to be #1 or #2 dps in the old dimen group (ran with them once), usually second to the lock. Just missed full clear because ran out of time. If you know fights & your class at ~378, more than ok for full clear normals, even with H Morchok.

I figured out why the other warlock dps was low on madness, well at least one of the reasons. Look at their shadowflame dmg vs mine - basically I make sure it's off CD when the bloods come out, and that's the first thing I hit them with. GG spellweave. I did 3x the dmg wtih shadowflame over Bane, and Elhz actually didn't cast it at all. If he did just that one thing, plus tips from below, he'd be middle of the pack for dps (rather than near bottom). The logs from last night are weird - not easy to see dot uptime/etc. Feels like soulswap wasn't used enough though. Also, here is a link to some general lock tips for DS: http://www.paragon.f...43-normal-modes Some ehlz notes if he gets access: - stop fel flaming so much! - he followed "always be casting" which is good (way more incinerates), but he was slow on conflags - he needs to soulfire way more - keep the buff up. Even if it means hard casting. Use Soulburn way more. And remember, to be good at warlock dps, you actually have to have some skill - unlike mages. @baneraiser - FYI, simcraft has crit way ahead of haste for you as aff. Not sure what that's about.